Presence.
Our pastor has been preaching on various topics from Proverbs. This past Sunday, he addressed what are sometimes referred to as the ‘Seven Deadly Sins’ from Proverbs 6:17-19. These seven things are noted to be things that God hates: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies, and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
These are things that God hates. So if you’re a person trying to please God, you would need to avoid these things. This idea started a tumble of thoughts for me….
I understand that God, being our creator, has preferences for how we live. He expresses some of them as commandments, things to either be sure to do, or be sure to avoid. (These, for example, he labels as detestable.) I understand all of this because I’ve been taught about it all my life. I not only understand it, but its the lens through which I view myself and my decisions.
I KNOW, for example, that when I avoid the things God asks me to avoid, things feel right….clear… at peace… like the calm surface of an expansive ocean. I know when I start messing with that peace by lying, or becoming arrogant, there’s a messiness that overlays that calm surface. And the more I stir up, the less of the calmness I can see. I become completely consumed by managing the mess I’m creating. But I also know that the calm surface of ‘rightness’ doesn’t go away. Because when I exhaust myself with this swirl of selfish activity, and I give it up and make things right, that calm surface comes back into focus.
It’s almost like that surface, that peace, the clarity, the rightness IS the presence of God. Not just the path to the presence of God.
So here’s my question: is this sensation universally known?
Most people of whatever belief system would agree that it’s best not to lie… it’s best not to kill… it’s best not to devise evil plans. And the absence of such activity feels like what? What would be the origin of the feeling of ‘all things right’ if one did not have an understanding of God’s existence?
Thoughts?
I love it when two ‘separate’ minds come together – and both are focussing on Him in us. ;-)
I agree too! – some of us chose not to receive – yet!
(present company largely excepted – i don’t know all who might be lurking ;-) )
<B
Love, I’ve got you now. I agree, God pours His love out on everyone, we just choose to receive what He has to offer.
Hi Brent, a little light came on somewhere and i thought i might have found why i felt like we were ‘disagreeing – here at least…
You were looking from the perspective of a person – looking to receive Grace and finding the kind of ‘peace’ Kim described.
I was looking at the perspective of God – handing out Peace to all – whether they are looking ofr it or able to see it is there – or not.
If you read Matt 5:45,46 again you will se my point i’m sure – God does not discriminate or chose who to Love. Or only loves his ‘good’ children. Jesus was decribing God’s attributes in those passages as well, not just reminding us of our ‘obligations’ to Him.
Just so’s we’re clear here…’45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? ‘
<B
Hey Love, I know of Matthew 5, but I think it speaks to the fact that Jesus is available to all…as they choose…so we as believers need to notice all.
Jesus is trying to remind us to not be arrogant in our little “Christian club”, but to remember everyone, including our enemies, because there is not one that cannot enjoy the presence of Jesus. But the bible is clear that we have to “take up our cross and follow Him” to receive His presence.
Agreed Brent – it IS more of a differing perspective than disagreement – hopefully we can grow our perspectives to see more of the other’s (Glad you said what you said to ‘Corey’ – EE-ven-tu-al-ee) ;-)
As for the Just and Unjust – that IS Scripture!
Sermon on the Mount – Matthew 5:45 you knew that – SURELY???
Why do i, an unconverted sinner (I don’t feel i have received His Spirit – i just have ‘knowledge’) seem to know scripture ‘more’ than those who preofess Faith today?
I really don’t get why so many don’t understand their Bible more???
I read ye olde english version maybe i just have to pay more attention to what it actually says that way??
Ya Think? :-)
<B
I do believe God has placed His moral structure in all of us and we choose to either feed our knowledge and understanding with His word or with our own ego…that would in honor of you Love :)
there are some great scriptures to go along with that and I am blank right now. I’ll try to find them.
inWorship…. agreed. So that would be the reason that we all know there’s ‘something more’ than just pleasing ourselves (a reference to tam’s comment)? And that would also relate to mandy’s comment that ‘we can’t help but display “morals” and “eternity” in our lives’.
I think I heard Rob Bell talk about this once… saying that because God is truth and the fullness of reality, we want to encourage people to search and dig and ask questions, because if they dig far enough, with sincerity, they will hit truth. And that truth will be God.
Would it be the ‘eternity set in our heart’ that compels us to dig?
Kim, that passage in Ecc 3, is one that I believe speaks to how God has placed in all of us a longing for Him. More than that, a space that only He can fill.
Love: thanks for the correction about the ‘seven deadly sins’ terminology. I did not realize the Catholic line-up of sins didn’t match the list in Proverbs. I should follow the advice I give my kids and avoid using terms and words if I’m not sure what they mean. :)
It’s possible that we’re all saying similar things, but using different language. Yes, God’s commands (not only the Big Ten, but other commands throughout scripture as well) include both ‘do’ and ‘don’t’ perspectives. Both perspectives are necessary; both are consistent with the presence of a loving, just, creator God. With my own kids, I mix ‘do’ and ‘don’t’ instructions all the time, all within the framework of what is best for them and those around them. While inWorshipVinny is right, that these commands remind us that apart from God we can do nothing, it is still true that God’s commands (not referring to the old covenant) paint a picture of the best way to live.
And I don’t know what to do with this verse in light of this discussin: He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. (Ecc 3:11)
Anyone have thoughts on that?
Hey Love, Not sure we totally disagree, maybe just perspective on how we see it.
I don’t see God’s list of commands as “don’t do’s”. He hasn’t dangled a morsel out in front of us and said don’t touch. I see His law as a reminder that apart from Him, we can do nothing. We are sinful and fail and cannot fulfill the law, but Jesus can and did and so we accept Jesus as our fulfillment.
I do have one question for you though. You said,
“God sends His Rain (Peace, Joy, Love) to fall Upon the Just and the Unjust alike!”
Really? I believe it is offered to those who receive, but…can you find scripture to back this up?
Err – ahhh – Kim??
As i have started a discourse on each one of the Seven Deadly Sins (A Catholic Concoction – not one of God’s) over on my blogs i have had to learn a whole bunch real quick. :-)
One of the things i learned is that the seven are NOT the same seven God Hates (Yup – i made that mistake myself so i am confident in ‘correcting’ your present and revealed (and incorrect) ‘understanding’ – we’re human – we learn imprefectly, we make mistakes and we assume things incorrectly – i don’t like it any more than you do – believe me)
God Hates liars Twice over (a lying tongue and a person who spreads false witness) – Yet the Pope’s who perpetuate their Seven D.S.’s have consitently left this out of their list (envy, gluttony, greed, lust, pride, slothfulness and wrath) – i think that speaks volumes.
I also have to disagree with Vinny (i seem to be doing that a LOT lately????? :shock:)
I don’t think God gave us commandments because he knows what is good for us (Surely, He does since he created us in His image) but it is quite clear to me that Commandments and the things god Hates are not given for reasons of what we should be doing – but what we should NOT be doing (not actually the same thing folks)
Eight out of Ten of the Ten Commandments are ‘Thou shalt NOT… the only two exceptions being to honour Father and Mother and to Keep that Sabbath Holy and do no work (anyone do that? anyone?)
Jesus of course gave us one Commandment – to Love (God first everyone else second)
In The New Testament it is made clear that God Gave Moses commandments because of the hardness of men’s hearts who could not love God Always and so needed instructions of what NOT to do to lead them back t Him – this again mostly failed and God had to send in His Only Begotten Son to try to set things ‘straight’.
I don’t think it worked all that well – beter than the Ten maybe – but 2000 years later we have not come very far – or got very close – as i see it anyways.
I think you go the ‘Peace’ beautifully. – and what causes the ripples in the ‘space time continuum’ :-)
As for the Question (once again i see things differently to Vinny – what’s WITH that???) God sends His Rain (Peace, Joy, Love) to fall Upon the Just and the Unjust alike!
So yes – i think it’s Universal, Clearly though, in human terms, we see things differently by reason of our different cultures.
But Peace and what we humans need and long for (Love, Shelter, Food, Water) are Universal to us all.
Without an understanding of God? Then we would have to rely upon all mankind agreeing – with each other and with Nature – try as the atheists might – that just aint gonna ever happen! :-)
Of course, while so many choose to only consider their own perceptions of God and dismiss other’s perceptions as ‘wrong’ then those who claim religion are not going to do any better either :-)
It’s all in the (His not ours) Understanding and Love, Folks!
<B
thanks, mandy, for that contribution. I agree with you… and I agree with inWorship and tam. :) I think all these things can be true.
i studied sociology in college, and dabbled in anthropology/psychology as well.
one thing that never left my attention is the fact that all societies have some sort of “moral” code – law – rules – norms… i think mankind has an innate desire for order and peace, as well as an innate knowledge that death is un-natural – it goes against WHO we are.
so, we have moral codes that maintain order as well as preserve life.
why?
because we’re made in the image of God – we’re made in the image of the eternal… we can’t help but display “morals” and “eternity” in our lives.
Romans 1:20
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
I really believe that, like B said, if one doesn’t receive God then they are w/out His Spirit, however…according to this verse we ALL know there’s something more. This leaves us searching. And until we come to find Him we will long and search our entire lives. But for what, why, what compels us to do so? Morality? Longing? A void? From where do those things derive from? His divine power possibly? I don’t know…I’m just throwing a thought out there.
Good Lord there’s a lot of typos there.
So the second paragraph should read…
“My opinion is that if we are feeling better, because we are doing the right thing…”
First of all, I think God’s commands are based on exactly what He knows is best for us. he created us, He knows what will be beneficial and what won’t.
Second, And this is a bit of a tangent, but your making me think, so bare with me :)
I don’t really think feelings have anything to do with it. My opinion is that if we are feeling better, because we aren’t ding the right thing, it is because we are meeting expectations that we are someone else has set for us. It always feels good to succeed.
Obedience may produce good feelings, but sometimes, even in our obedience, life will just suck. The problem then is, we suddenly think that we are not doing something right or that God is not pleased with us.
“is this sensation universally known?” I don’t believe God’s presence is universally known. I believe His Spirit is given only to those who believe. So although some (who do not know Him) may think they “feel” what we do, they cannot truly understand. It is like someone has walked through a terrible situation and you are trying to “understand” how they feel. You can sympathize, but if you have never ben through it, you don’t know it.
Also, today, morals are based on what people think is right or wrong. So someone can be very content with who they are and what they’ve done, thinking they have lived up to some sort of expectations based on their idea of morality.
I have a very good friend that is an atheist and is very happy and is very content with the life he is living. He does good. He is caring. Probably more than many Christians I know. the difference is that Jesus has covered me with his blood. God’s presence is in me. I can sin or do right. I can feel good or feel bad. But I can always have His true joy and true peace as I live by his truth.
Sorry for all the scattered thoughts. It’s late but I like your ideas here.